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Post by Noah on Jan 8, 2013 17:05:28 GMT -5
I wonder why Negroids claim King Tut as their own? Tutankhamun was Hamitic, like modern Egyptians and other Afro-Asiatic populations in North Africa and the Horn. Afrocentrists (among other unrelated peoples) claim him essentially because of his esteemed position in history. They've also been emboldened by a recent genetic study erroneously suggesting that the Pharaoh and a few other Egyptian royals from the Amarna site in Middle Egypt had predominant Sub-Saharan affinities. In actuality, Tut's microsatellite alleles have a higher incidence amongst modern South Asian and Amerindian populations.
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Post by Atlantid on Jan 8, 2013 19:14:32 GMT -5
Is that how you would describe your assertion elsewhere vis-a-vis the Socotrans that "there looks as if there is an Australoid strain among them"?
I only picked up on Australoid traits, I didn't identify them as a type (each individual will differ). Gayre considered there to be another macro-type in those populations, manifesting in different degrees which he called "Melanoid", which is loosely synonymous with Australoid. This appears to manifest most in their palate and teeth region. "The results of those studies have shown that Socotran aborig nes are distinguished by a peculiar structure of skin on the palms and fingers. They are a group of mixed origin, whose content is primarily determined by South Europid traits. The second largest racial component has to do with the Indian-Australoid admixture." - Proceedings of the Ninth International Congress of Ethiopian Studies, Moscow, 26-29 August 1986, p. 91
The flaxen/light blond is just a light golden tinge. I'll try and find a photo.
He's probably only discussing the Gracile-Mediterranean.
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Post by egypt1101 on Jan 8, 2013 19:34:35 GMT -5
I wonder why Negroids claim King Tut as their own? They want to be associated with Egypt anyway they can, however their claims are not validated by anthropologists or serologists.
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Post by Atlantid on Jan 8, 2013 19:58:25 GMT -5
^ Good top quotes, however blood groups are not race related. They're randomly distributed shaped in frequency through drift. Trying to associate races/racial types with blood groups completely failed. Under Boyd (1950, 1955) who attempted this led to "Basques" classified as "non-European" and a seperate race to all other Europeans. His 1950 races were macro (e.g. European was equivilent to Caucasoid). So he was essentially saying Basques are non-Caucasoid.
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Post by egypt1101 on Jan 8, 2013 20:09:36 GMT -5
Anthropologist J.D. Irish on the ancient Egyptian population at Hierakonpolis aka Nekhen:
1) dental phenetic homogeneity was prevalent among the Hierakonpolis inhabitants; and 2) they exhibit dental traits that ally them with other post-Pleistocene populations in greater North Africa. Prior work shows North Africans have morphologically simple, mass-reduced teeth. This dental pattern was shown to be ubiquitous among samples, regardless of distance—from the Canary Islands to Egypt and Nubia—or time—from 8,000 year-old Capsians to recent Berbers in western North Africa. This pattern, termed the “North African Dental Trait Complex,” includes high frequencies of several traits such as an interruption groove on UI2, M3 agenesis, and rocker jaw, plus a low occurrence of LM2 Y-5 groove pattern. All of these features are also present in Europeans and West Asians to some degree, but are uncommon in sub-Saharan peoples. Craniometric indicators appear to support these results, and European-like discrete traits, such as alveolar orthognathism, dolichocephaly, rhomboid orbits, narrow nasal aperture, and nasal sill, are prevalent[/font][/u]… At present, my qualitative inspection of the 14 crania appears to support the preliminary dental findings: 1) Hierakonpolis inhabitants appear to be uniform in cranial size and form, and 2) they show some resemblance to other post-Pleistocene populations of North Africa, as well as Europe and West Asia. They appear distinct from post-Pleistocene sub-Saharan Africans.” [/u]( “Preliminary Report on Analyses of the Hierakonpolis Human Remains” Dr. Joel D. Irish, Dept. of Anthropology, University of Alaska Fairbanks; Nekhen News volume 12 Page 9& 10 2000)[/b]
And then Lucotte puts it in layman terms:
“In pre-Neolithic times (about 7000-3000 BP) the Mediterranean and Red Sea coasts of North Africa were populated by white, Hamite-speaking peoples, who have come to be called Berbers and Egyptians. In Pharaonic Africa (3000 years BP) the population had suffered drastic changes, with agricultural Egypt having 1 million people. Climatic changes had dried northern Africa by around 8000-4000 years BP; the forest line had retreated towards the Equator from about the 16th parallel by 3000 years BP, and the Sahara had assumed the characteristics it has today.” (“Y-chromosome DNA haplotypes in North African populations” Lucotte et al., 2000)
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Post by egypt1101 on Jan 8, 2013 20:11:44 GMT -5
^ Good top quotes, however blood groups are not race related. They're randomly distributed shaped in frequency through drift. Trying to associate races/racial types with blood groups completely failed. Under Boyd (1950, 1955) who attempted this led to "Basques" classified as "non-European" and a seperate race to all other Europeans. His 1950 races were macro (e.g. European was equivilent to Caucasoid). So he was essentially saying Basques are non-Caucasoid. Perhaps that might be the case in some blood groups, however “The frequencies of A2m allotypes are race dependent." This would agree with the Amarna family fitting the Caucasoid classification.
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Post by preddinarid on Jan 8, 2013 23:22:08 GMT -5
One thing I noted is that Tut has virtually no supraorbital (brow)ridge development: According to H. J. Janson (1963, 1977) who surveyed thousands of pieces of ancient egyptian art, from the Old Kingdom through to later periods, weak-no brow ridges are standard. Moderate to developed brow ridges are very rare, to non-existent. There is also mid-face protrusion which is Caucasoid as opposed to lower jaw protrusion. I think he has minor maxiliary prognathism as well. His ears are long and thin with developed earlobes. The chin looks developed as well and pronounced. Not what I was expecting at all before I stumbled across this photograph.
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Post by Noah on Jan 9, 2013 19:10:57 GMT -5
I only picked up on Australoid traits, I didn't identify them as a type (each individual will differ). Gayre considered there to be another macro-type in those populations, manifesting in different degrees which he called "Melanoid", which is loosely synonymous with Australoid. This appears to manifest most in their palate and teeth region. "The results of those studies have shown that Socotran aborig nes are distinguished by a peculiar structure of skin on the palms and fingers. They are a group of mixed origin, whose content is primarily determined by South Europid traits. The second largest racial component has to do with the Indian-Australoid admixture." - Proceedings of the Ninth International Congress of Ethiopian Studies, Moscow, 26-29 August 1986, p. 91I realize you don't do genetics, but it's nonetheless important to bear in mind that the Socotrans have the highest modern frequencies of the basal haplogroup J (J*). Along with the E1b1b and T clades, this is one of the most common paternal lineages today in the Arabian peninsula. The flaxen/light blond is just a light golden tinge. "Flaxen" skin color? I doubt that's what they meant. Probably just another error. He's probably only discussing the Gracile-Mediterranean. That's possible. ^ Good top quotes, however blood groups are not race related. They're randomly distributed shaped in frequency through drift. Trying to associate races/racial types with blood groups completely failed. Under Boyd (1950, 1955) who attempted this led to "Basques" classified as "non-European" and a seperate race to all other Europeans. His 1950 races were macro (e.g. European was equivilent to Caucasoid). So he was essentially saying Basques are non-Caucasoid. That mainly applies to the ABO blood groups. Several other blood group systems, particularly Duffy antigens, are actually quite good biochemical markers.
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Post by Noah on Jan 9, 2013 19:30:27 GMT -5
There is also mid-face protrusion which is Caucasoid as opposed to lower jaw protrusion. I think he has minor maxiliary prognathism as well. His ears are long and thin with developed earlobes. The chin looks developed as well and pronounced. Not what I was expecting at all before I stumbled across this photograph. Tut's chin was small. He also had a slight overbite or "beautiful buck teeth", as Zahi Hawass put it (which, by the way, was not uncommon among the Ancient Egyptians and related populations): Think Houari Boumédiène: But darker and more reddish-brown in complexion; like the typical Ancient Egyptians in the middle of the bottom row below: Or this Berber herder:
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Post by preddinarid on Jan 9, 2013 22:55:13 GMT -5
Well he wasn't a Negro. That much we know.
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Post by preddinarid on Jan 9, 2013 23:01:56 GMT -5
I realize you don't do genetics, but it's nonetheless important to bear in mind that the Socotrans have the highest modern frequencies of the basal haplogroup J (J*). Along with the E1b1b and T clades, this is one of the most common paternal lineages today in the Arabian peninsula. Haplogroup J is a Caucasoid haplogroup. I don't think any Negroids have it unless they are mixed race and their father is Caucasoid. Negroes have E1b1a.
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Post by Atlantid on Jan 10, 2013 0:12:07 GMT -5
Malocclusion or overbite is very common for everyone (in fact if you don't have it to some extent you are highly abnormal). However the Afronuts confuse it with alveolar prognathism and then claim if a crania has teeth projecting it is "Black". The most amusing thing though is that Afrocentrics claim the Negroid is an invention by "European supremacists", however when they find a crania with wide noses and prognathism, they claim it is "Black" (Van Sertima's Olmec Heads).
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Post by preddinarid on Jan 10, 2013 1:02:29 GMT -5
Malocclusion or overbite is very common for everyone (in fact if you don't have it to some extent you are highly abnormal). However the Afronuts confuse it with alveolar prognathism and then claim if a crania has teeth projecting it is "Black". The most amusing thing though is that Afrocentrics claim the Negroid is an invention by "European supremacists", however when they find a crania with wide noses and prognathism, they claim it is "Black" (Van Sertima's Olmec Heads). Yes, I agree. They are quite ridiculous. Almost everyone I see has a bit of over-bite. It would be odd without it. My chin is small like Tut's. I sent you another PM, btw.
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Post by Noah on Jan 10, 2013 18:31:33 GMT -5
Haplogroup J is a Caucasoid haplogroup. I don't think any Negroids have it unless they are mixed race and their father is Caucasoid. Negroes have E1b1a. You appear to be confusing autosomal DNA with uniparental markers, like Y-DNA and mtDNA. Y-DNA and mtDNA haplogroups are useful for tracking population movements. For example, the fact that many Lemba in Southern Africa carry haplogroup J lends credence to their oral traditions asserting that they descend from Jewish males who intermarried with local Bantu women. Haplogroup E is also at its origin a Hamitic haplogroup, by the way.
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