|  Author | Topic: Hamitic origin of Haplogroup E (Read 4,072 times) |
Noah
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Karma: 7 |  | Hamitic origin of Haplogroup E
« Thread Started on Jul 30, 2011, 4:46am » | |
Every genetic study extant places the origins of haplogroup E either in Northeast Africa or in Eurasia. None associate the clade's origins directly with Negroid populations. Despite this, confusion (primarily among laypeople) seems to surround the haplogroup's population affinities. This mainly has to do with the fact that numerous (though not all) modern Negroid peoples carry the clade. This thread helps explain why they do, as well as how, when and through what mechanism(s) those Negroid peoples acquired haplogroup E in the first place from the Hamitic folk it originated with.
While many Negroid populations today carry haplogroup E lineages, this was not the case only a few centuries ago. This has to do with the fact that:
1) The oldest Negroid skeletal remains that have ever been found are only about 12,000 years old i.e. tens of thousands of years younger than when the mutation that defines haplogroup E first arose.
"On the basis of genetic and archaeological data, black Africans seem to have radiated from a relatively small West African and possibly pygmy population within the last 20,000 years (Coon, 1962, pp. 651-656; Spurdle et al., 1994; Watson et al., 1996). The time and place of origin can be further narrowed down with linguistic data. Speakers of proto-Niger Congo broke up c. 10,000 BP and the oldest derived group appear to be proto-Mande speakers, whose descendants inhabit the Niger's headwaters near the Mali-Guinea border (Blench, 1984, pp. 128-129; Ehret, 1984; Murdock, 1959, pp. 44, 64-68)[...] Thus, black Africans were still absent from most of sub-Saharan Africa even within historic times. When the Egyptians began to build their pyramids, the peoples living to the south were scarcely darker in color. They were simply seen as uncivilized Egyptians. Thus, the civilized world initially encountered a much narrower range of human phenotypes than it would later on. This context shaped the intellectual worldview in its early stages, including theorizing on universal brotherhood. To a degree not easy to assess, we are heirs to notions of human sameness that were first conceived ‘before Africa became black’."
http://evoandproud.blogspot.com/2008/02/origins-of-black-africans.html
http://racialreality.blogspot.com/search?q=Asselar
2) Haplogroup E and its parent clade haplogroup DE originated with Northeast Africans (or possibly even Near Easterners), not with Bantus. This is because Horners have the highest frequencies of haplogroup E, the highest variety of different sub-clades of the haplogroup (i.e. the highest diversity), and the exclusive presence of the oldest branches of the haplogroup.
"The presence of two underived E-M96 Saudi lineages raises interesting questions related to the macrohaplogroup DE-YAP phylogeography. The recent resolutions of the CDEF-M168 tripartite structure to the bipartite DE-YAP and CF-P143 [16,31] extends the conversation regarding the early successful colonization of Eurasia. While several scenarios remain potentially possible the most parsimonious model is the most prudent. This model proposes the successful colonization of Eurasia by migration(s) of populations containing precursor Y-chromosome founder macrohaplogroup CDET-M168 and basal mtDNA L3 representatives. Regions near but external to northeast Africa, like the Levant or the southern Arabian Peninsula could have served as an incubator for the early diversification of non-African uniparental haplogroup varieties like Y chromosome DE-YAP*, CF-P143* and mtDNA M and N molecular ancestors. These would have spread globally and diversified over time and space. This model would imply that both CF-P143 and the DE-YAP evolved nearby but outside Africa. One DE-YAP* ancestor would have spread to Asia and evolved to haplogroup D while another DE-YAP* returned to northeast Africa and evolved into hg E."
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2156/10/59
"Y-DNA haplogroup E would appear to have arisen in Northeast Africa based on the concentration and variety of E subclades in that area today. But the fact that Haplogroup E is closely linked with Haplogroup D, which is not found in Africa, leaves open the possibility that E first arose in the Near or Middle East and was subsequently carried into Africa by a back migration[...] E1b1b1 probably evolved either in Northeast Africa or the Near East and then expanded to the west--both north and south of the Mediterranean Sea. Eb1b1 clusters are seen today in Western Europe, Southeast Europe, the Near East, Northeast Africa and Northwest Africa."
http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpE.html
3) Bantus only recently acquired the haplogroup by assimilating some Afro-Asiatic males in Northeast Africa, which is why the most common haplogroup E lineage Bantus possess (namely, E1b1a/E3a) is only about 10,000 years old. The haplogroup, along with the Bantu languages, was then spread to the rest of Sub-Saharan Africa by Bantu intermediaries via the Bantu expansion of 3500 years ago.
"E1b1a is an African lineage that probably expanded from northern African to sub-Saharan and equatorial Africa with the Bantu agricultural expansion."
http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpE.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bantu_expansion
In the process, the migrating Bantus' paternal DNA (haplogroup E lineages) replaced the pre-existing Y-DNA haplogroups in the previously Khoisan, Pygmy (hunter-gatherer) and Afro-Asiatic-inhabited regions of southern and southeastern Africa that they invaded.
"The data presented demonstrate a recent origin for most paternal lineages in west-central Africa as a result of the "Bantu expansion" that erased the Y-chromosome diversity previously found. However, some traces of ancient paternal lineages are found, mainly in hunter-gathererers. These results contrast with the data provided by mtDNA, where ancient lineages are found and substantial maternal gene flow from hunter-gatherers to Bantu-farmers has been suggested."
http://books.google.ca/books?id=X_cac38pfmAC&pg=PT117#v=onepage&q&f=false
4) Bantus share their deepest ancestry with Pygmies, not with Northeast Africans:
http://www.pnas.org/content/105/5/1596.full
http://www.pasteur.fr/ip/easysite/go/03b....er-population s
http://anthropology.net/2008/02/12/mtdna....-bantu-farmers/
In other words, the original paternal haplogroups of Bantus and all other Negroid peoples were until recently the Paleo-African A and B clades that are still common in Pygmies and Khoisan relict populations, not haplogroup E lineages.
5) Most Negroid peoples speak languages from the Niger-Congo, Nilo-Saharan and Khoisan language families -- none of which are genetically related to the Afro-Asiatic language family spoken by most Hamitic peoples. Afro-Asiatic's nearest relatives are language families that are overwhelmingly spoken by populations with Caucasoid physiognomies, together with which it is grouped in the Nostratic and Borean super-phylums.
"It is clear that the Borean hypothesis involves a super-phylum some of whose sub-taxa are themselves super-phyla. The term phyletic chain is introduced as a better label, particularly because the Borean groups show a chain like distribution from southern Ethiopia through southwestern Eurasia to northeast Asia and down to the end of the New World. Borean has clear similarities to Swadesh's Vasco-Dene. Borean is predominantly associated with human populations of "Caucasoid" or "Northern Mongoloid" physical appearance, the major exceptions being southern India, southern China, southwestern Ethiopia, northern Nigeria, and the Chad Republic. Borean as a chain is closely associated with the appearance of the Upper Paleolithic in the Levant, Europe, and western Eurasia from 50,000 to 45,000 years ago."
http://greenberg-conference.stanford.edu/Fleming_Abstract.htm
http://starling.rinet.ru/maps/maps17.php?lan=en
This at the very least suggests a proto-Caucasoid origin for not only haplogroup E, but for the more upstream haplogroup CT too. It also reinforces the observation that haplogroup E is not the original paternal lineage of Bantus, Nilotes and other Negroid populations, but rather one that they later acquired.
6) Bantus, Nilotes and other Negroid populations cluster with Pygmies and the Khoisan (modern Paleo-Africans) in autosomal DNA tests instead of with haplogroup CT-descended Eurasian populations (the latter of which encompasses the rest of the world).
"studies support a primary division of human populations into sub-Saharan Africans and Eurasian populations"
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0003399502011401
This as well all but confirms that the haplogroup CT-descended clade E was not the original paternal lineage of any Negroid peoples. Rather, it was and is primarily a Hamitic Caucasoid marker.
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Apart from relatively late Semitic influence...the civilizations of Africa are the civilizations of the Hamites, its history is the record of these peoples and of their interaction with the two other African stocks, the Negro and the Bushmen, whether this influence was exerted by highly civilized Egyptians or by such wider pastoralists as are represented at the present day by the Beja and Somali. |
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theleader9
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Karma: 2 | | Re: Hamitic origin of Haplogroup E
« Reply #1 on Aug 5, 2011, 3:44pm » | |
So the reason why the Bantus have Haplogroup E largely is because of few Afro Asiatic men ? Makes sense especially considering the fact that their languages are largely or are non Afro Asiatic.
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Noah
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Karma: 7 | | Re: Hamitic origin of Haplogroup E
« Reply #2 on Aug 5, 2011, 6:48pm » | |
Yeah bro, Bantus acquired haplogroup E from the Hamitic males it originated with.
Here's an example of how it likely happened:
First, Hamitic men mated with Pygmy women (they probably didn't have access to Hamitic women so they bred with whatever women were available to them and/or the Pygmy women were their concubines). This gave birth to Bantus and other Negroid people, whom are actually Hamitic and Pygmy/Paleoafrican mixes.
Bear in mind that a man inherits his Y chromosome from his father regardless of his father's race. Even if the boy's father is Indian and his mother is Korean, the boy is still of course his father's son and therefore will still inherit his father's Y chromosome, whatever that clade may happen to be (have a look at the Genetic basics in plain English thread for a quick and easy tutorial on these terms). In this particular example, the half-Indian, half-Korean boy's father's Y chromosome will probably be haplogroup L or T since those are very common in Indian males. So this half-Indian, half-Korean boy will have inherited one of those typically South Asian haplogroups just like regular Indian boys. This is basically the situation with Bantus, a small group of whom originally inherited their Hamitic fathers' Y chromosome (haplogroup E), just like regular Hamitic boys.
Remember that Bantus were just a small population not that long ago. The great resemblance of the Bantu languages to each other as well as the Bantus' common genetic heritage with West Africans, among other things, demonstrate this.
![[image]](http://i53.tinypic.com/2jdgoc2.jpg "[image]")
Bantus should be thought of as the middlemen who then spread those (originally Hamitic) haplogroup E lineages to the rest of Sub-Saharan Africa. And they only began to spread those lineages beginning around the start of the Common Era (~ 1 CE). That's quite recent in the grand scheme of things.
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Apart from relatively late Semitic influence...the civilizations of Africa are the civilizations of the Hamites, its history is the record of these peoples and of their interaction with the two other African stocks, the Negro and the Bushmen, whether this influence was exerted by highly civilized Egyptians or by such wider pastoralists as are represented at the present day by the Beja and Somali. |
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theleader9
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Karma: 2 | | Re: Hamitic origin of Haplogroup E
« Reply #3 on Aug 5, 2011, 9:20pm » | |
Yes i know brother that the Y hapologroup is passed through father to son , thats is why we hamites are connected but thanks for clarifying it for people who don't know about it. But dont most Bantu people have E1b1a instead of E1b1b like us. So that would mean that it was spread by proto Hamitic people before the modren day hamites existed.
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hamiticsister101
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« Reply #4 on Aug 6, 2011, 9:30pm » | |
Bantus and Nilotes have E1b1a from their Hamitic fathers a mutation and A and B from their Pygmy mothers. Y-DNA is passed from father to son, Blacks have Hamitic fathers but because their mothers were pygmy Paleo-Africans as opposed to Hamitic Berbers and Cushites of whom their mothers were Caucasoid women.
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Noah
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Karma: 7 | | Re: Hamitic origin of Haplogroup E
« Reply #5 on Aug 6, 2011, 9:51pm » | |
@ Leader
You are correcting in noting that E1b1a is the most common lineage in Bantus, and that it's only about 10,000 years old. In other words, it's almost exactly as old as the oldest Negroid skeletons!
The reason for that is because Negroid peoples did not exist before then. And they did not exist before then because they are not an end type in themselves, but a product of admixture between Hamitic Caucasoid males and Paleoafrican females (Pygmies, in this case).
This is why Bantus and many other Negroid peoples have haplogroup E lineages, while not at all clustering in terms of autosomal DNA (and linguistic families) with the non-Negroid descendants of haplogroup E's parent haplogroup CR clade. In other words, they belonged to haplogroup A and B clades, as many still do (particularly in Nilotic Sudan):
![[image]](http://64.40.115.138/file/lu/6/52235/NTIyMzV9K3szNDAwNTQ=.jpg?download=1 "[image]")
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Apart from relatively late Semitic influence...the civilizations of Africa are the civilizations of the Hamites, its history is the record of these peoples and of their interaction with the two other African stocks, the Negro and the Bushmen, whether this influence was exerted by highly civilized Egyptians or by such wider pastoralists as are represented at the present day by the Beja and Somali. |
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theleader9
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Karma: 2 | | Re: Hamitic origin of Haplogroup E
« Reply #6 on Aug 6, 2011, 10:50pm » | |
So in other words the notion that Negroids were the first people on earth is void and false. LOL the Afrocentric knuckle heads must be having a heart attack though they prob heard it and are denying the truth. I myself did read an article about couple months back about the oldest negroid skull is only 10,000 years old.
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hamiticsister101
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« Reply #7 on Aug 7, 2011, 2:06pm » | |
The firs Negroid civilization was the Nok Culture it appeared in modern day Northern Nigeria in 1000 B.C and then vanished in 500 A.D lol! No one actually knows why however there is no evidence of any other advanced and sophisticated Negroid society at all, it is disturbing to know that the Negroid peoples especially the Bantus were not known in history at all till the Arab Slave Trade along the Swahili coasts in Kenya, Mozambique, and Tanzania when they encountered with the Zanji (Negroid). The Arab scholars and explorers have reported that they lived in an unhuman and barbaric way of life where these people were naked and practiced cannibalism. The only Negroid peoples I give credit to would be the Nubian Nilotes who are mixed now with Arab and European DNA this is why they appear Hamitic and the Malians of Mali because for one you have the Nubian Kingdom that took its culture and customs from the previous Kushite Kingdom ruled by the Beja and the Malians after contact with Islam. However the Malians are mostly of Fulani heritage, the Fulani are said to have come from Eritrea a long time ago so they are certainly not necessarily Negroid but mixed with Cushitic, Berber, Eurasian and Negroid. There is no Negroid civilization, niether will there be one in the future. Just look at White Caucasoid nieghborhoods in North America and then compare it to where the Blacks live. Look at what Haiti used to be "The Pearl of the Caribbean" and then the French left and its now a shit hole where these people practice Voodoo and cannibalism. The Dominican Republic is on the other side of Hispaniola and its a wealthy nation, the Dominican republic is ruled by Spaniard Whites and the peoples are of either Spaniard White descent or of mixed Spaniard, Negroid, and Native Carib descent. Something is seriously wrong with the Negroid, though he is clearly mixed with the conquering Hamites but he also has paleo-African DNA which according to science evolved right out of apes.
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hamiticsister101
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« Reply #8 on Aug 7, 2011, 2:16pm » | |
Hamitic Civilizations:
Egyptian
Numidian (Berber)
Carthiginian (Berber/Phoenician)
Ancient Mauritania (Berber)
Kush (Cushitic)
Axum (Cushitic)
Punt
Canary Islands (Guanche Berber), etc.
Canaan (modern day Palestine/Israel/Canaan)
The Phoenicians and Puntites are the same they come from Punt or Phut or Pwenet as the Egyptians said who was a son of Ham, the Greeks called him Pontus god of the ocean. They came and conquered modern day Lebanon, Tunisia, and Somalia. The Carthiginians were of Phoenician and Berber descent.
The Berbers are children of Lybyos this is where you get the word "Libya" from, Lybyos was a son of Mizraim (Egypt/Aegyptus).
Egypt was a son of Ham, his Hebrew or Semitic name is Mizraim or Mizr or Misr or Misor, this is still used amongst Afro-Asiatic speaking peoples. The ancient Greeks called him Aegyptus another god amongst them.
Cush or Aethiopis (Ethiopia) was a son of Ham, in ancient times Cush was India, Iran, Iraq, modern day Ethiopia, Sudan, and Arabia. In Greek mythology Zeus was Cush, he was often called Zeus the Aethiop his son Bacchus (Son of Cush) or Dionysus was Nimrod, sometimes the Greeks say that Vulcan the god of fire had a son named Aethiopus or Cush and he fathered the Cushites.
Canaan was a son of Ham, otherwise known as Kancaan or Kan'aan, he was the youngest son and he was settled in modern day Palestine/Israel, and also Jordan and northern Arabia. The Canaanites still live in Israel/Palestine and Northern Arabia. Canaan had 2 sons: Sidon and Heth they ruled Syria and Lebanon, Sidon was the major Phoenician city, and the Hittites were the most warlike people in Syria who invaded many countries.
The Hamites were the rulers of the ancient world they ruled the Middle East, Africa, and South Asia where the Semites were outnumbered and small and the Aryans to the north also. However since historians hide this today (I don't know why) our people are in ignorance of their history and legacy as kings and queens of the world.
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Noah
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« Reply #9 on Aug 7, 2011, 9:49pm » | |
Excellent information sis. The major civilizations above are one reason why Charles Seligman once declared that: "Apart from relatively late Semitic influence...the civilizations of Africa are the civilizations of the Hamites, its history is the record of these peoples and of their interaction with the two other African stocks, the Negro and the Bushmen, whether this influence was exerted by highly civilized Egyptians or by such wider pastoralists as are represented at the present day by the Beja and Somali".
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Apart from relatively late Semitic influence...the civilizations of Africa are the civilizations of the Hamites, its history is the record of these peoples and of their interaction with the two other African stocks, the Negro and the Bushmen, whether this influence was exerted by highly civilized Egyptians or by such wider pastoralists as are represented at the present day by the Beja and Somali. |
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hamiticsister101
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« Reply #10 on Aug 10, 2011, 12:24am » | |
Of course its not just in Africa its all the civilizations in the Middle East and South Asia, the Europeans themselves have traditions of the Black skinned Cushites ruling them. What about Hensgard the Black of Norway, or Maurian the Knight of Arthur's circle? Or what about the best friend of Erik the Red, the black skinned 7 ft giant, violent Moor named Thorsgrad. The Europeans and everyone else knew its all recorded, I don't know why they are hiding it. Or what about the Fomorian Egyptians who invaded Britain and Ireland?
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theleader9
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« Reply #11 on Aug 10, 2011, 1:25pm » | |
If were going by 3 son's of Noah ( Ham,Shem,Japheth) then aren't blacks also apart of the Hamitic race since they are also the sons of Ham or so I have heard.
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hamiticsister101
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« Reply #12 on Aug 10, 2011, 1:52pm » | |
No because you know why? Blacks are of the sons of Japheth look at Asia its filled with all the three races however look at southeast Asia go to the Melanesian islands or Micronesian islands and you will see the same exact Negroid peoples. In religious theology all people came from Asia to Africa, Europe, Americas, etc. The Negroid race is in Asia (Micronesia, Melanesia, Papua New Guinea, etc) and in Africa. They are East Asian, and in the Bible and in many other traditions East Asians and Indo-Europeans are children of Japheth, this is why the Khoisan in Africa have yellow skin and small eyes, some actually have straight hair as well. Ham is the father of North Africans, Horners, and the ancient Canaanites, Hittites, Cushites, etc. who came from the Middle East to North Africa and the Horn. In ancient times we dominated the ancient world particularly the Middle East, North Africa, the Horn, South Asia, etc.
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theleader9
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« Reply #13 on Aug 10, 2011, 2:15pm » | |
HMMMMM interesting tI did notice Asians and black do share certain features with each other some of them got the same flat nose ill have to look deeply in to that I had my doubts but i used to hear that all people native to Africa are descended of Ham.
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hamiticsister101
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« Reply #14 on Aug 10, 2011, 2:28pm » | |
Actually the Bible doesn't say that Blacks are from Africa at all, the word "Black" is something that the ancient Hebrews never used since a lot of them were dark skinned themselves. The Bible says that the Curse of Noah on Ham went to his son Canaan. Now would the Hebrews say that the Canaanites were cursed and God hated them? They never said that the Canaanites were "Black" at all they just said that Canaan and his descedents were cursed. And the main reason why the Hebrews would write this is because they and the Canaanites were enemies and they were fighting.
The Canaanites had lived in the Land of Canaan for a long, long, long time and then the Hebrews who are Semites from modern day Iraq were taking them out. They were sworn enemies, this is why the Bible pointed and said that Canaan was cursed. Now the Mizraimites or Egyptians enslaved the Hebrews but they weren't cursed at all, niether were they considered to be cursed. The Cushites who lived in Iraq, Northern Arabia, and Africa were the most kind to the Hebrews and in fact Moses married amongst the Midianites a Northern Arabian Cushitic tribe, Moses himself looked Egyptian. Many Hebrews were called Cushite like the prophet Zephaniah ben Cushi. So the word "Black" was something alien to the Hebrews and an oxymoron lol! They were dark themselves and calling others "black" as if they were foriegn was something out of the question. The Canaanites were the main enemy of the Hebrews this is why they were called cursed in the Bible.
Other surrounding Canaanite tribes fought the Israelites as well such as the Amorites, or the Israelites own cousins the Edomites (Edom means "Red"), who were considered to be a reddish-brown people (like what Somalis say Mareen) and lived in the region of Edom a land where the sand was red and the mountains red in modern day Jordan and Northern Arabia. So they didn't use the words "White" and "Black" which was completly alien to the ancient world.
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