Ramesses III's ancestry

[Noah]

A new study by the Zink et al. team that produced the controversial 2010 Armana paper suggests that the Egyptian Pharaoh Ramesses III and one Unknown Man E, who may be his son Prince Pentawere, probably both belonged to haplogroup E1b1a. This is the most common paternal lineage today in Sub-Saharan Africa. However, it is nearly absent in North Africa and the Horn region:

As it turns out, several of the STR values indicated in the study are highly improbable. The men would instead appear to have belonged to the V22 sub-clade of haplogroup E1b1b. This lineage is, by contrast, quite common throughout Northeast Africa, with a very limited occurrence in Sub-Saharan Africa.

I won't say much more since a poster on RootsWeb was good enough to have already done the necessary legwork:

"The study states it ran the mummy's haplotype through Athey's Haplogroup Predictor and the result was 93% E1b1a. The problem is that the haplotype unquestionably has erroneous STR values: 393=8, 19=19, 391=8, 392=17. These aren't impossible values, but they're close, and all 4 occuring simultaneously does indeed seem statistically almost impossible. I know that the exact same haplotype was found in another mummy, and I have no explanation for this second impossibility of obtaining the exact same erroneous results twice, but the STR values are unquestionably filled with erroneous results. I tried to see if they commited some conversion mistakes, but the study listed several reference haplotypes they used of modern people, and they were perfectly normal, so those bizarre results like 393=8 really do mean 393=8.

If we exclude the ridiculous STRs, the most likely haplotype is E1b1b, and probably specifically E1b1b-V22, which also happens to be centered in Egypt. In other words, the mummy would have a quintessentially Egyptian haplogroup, like finding an Irishman belong to R1b-M222.

390=21 is E1b1a, that's true, E1b1b-V22 has 24.

385a/b=20/20 is a very rare high value, very unlikely for E1b1a or most E1b1b haplogroups, but in E1b1b-V22 it would be ok. This is the single STR value that allows to guess the specific E1b1b subcluster, since V22 has unusually very high values for 385, unlike other E1b1b haplogroups. To which we can add the circumstance that V22 also happens to be the most common variety of E1b1b in Egypt.

389a/b=13/33 is another very rare high value, specifically the second STR, the first one is normal. There's no difference in these STRs in E1b1a, E1b1b, or E1b1b-V22. But by now we can see that even the values that aren't flat out insane aren't exactly normal, either, they tend to be extreme, just not as extreme.

437/448 = 14/20 is, for a change, an absolutely perfectly normal value, which is perfect for E1b1a or E1b1b.

H4=13 is a little high but not unusual. This high value is pretty common in E1b1b-V12, somewhat rare in other E1b1b, and rare in E1b1a.

456=13 is a very rare low value. E1b1a and E1b1b-V22 tend to have lower values for this STR compared to other E1b1b haplogroups, but still the reported value is very rare in any of these haplogroups, and it looks like another suspicious STR value.

438=10 is a normal value. It's typical of all E1b1b haplogroups, but E1b1a has instead 438=11 and only 2% of E1b1a samples have 438=10.

So... The haplotype has several guaranteed erroneous values, and several more that look suspicious of being so, too. Amongst the normal looking ones, 390=21 strongly favors E1b1a, 438=10 strongly favors E1b1b. To me the most likely haplogroup is E1b1b-V22, but it's only a good guess. Also in favor of E1b1b-V22 is the fact that E1b1a occurs in 2% of Egyptians, while E1b1b-V22 occurs in 15% of north Egyptians, 5% in Egyptians from several oasis to the west of the Nile, and 4% in south Egyptians. It's centered in Egypt, there's nowhere else in the world with a higher frequency, and in fact the frequency gradually goes down in the 3 directions radiating out of Egypt: the second highest frequencies are in Northwest Africa, Ethiopia/Sudan, and the Levant."

archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2012-12/1355934165

[Atlantid]

Have you got anything on metric/non-metric analysis of his mummy?

[Noah]

There may perhaps be something in Morton's Crania Aegyptiaca in the Hamitic Library.

Below is Ramesses' actual mummy and some artwork of him. He looks and was depicted as typically Ancient Egyptian:

[egypt1101]

I think this video explains everything anyone ever wanted to know about Ramses III and his son Pentawere, described as "white" and "blonde" these are not Bantu features at all:

[Noah]

Informative video!

I personally doubt that Ramesses III was white-skinned in the European sense of the term. He was probably somewhere within the average skin color range of modern Egyptians, which typically varies from dark brown to light brown. It's possible, though, that he was blonde since many related Meroitic, Puntite and Libyan peoples were.

[Atlantid]

Yea, there's something in Morton. I think he labelled him a hybrid racial type. I don't think he's Caucasoid or Negroid, but an interracial type based on his craniometry and hair analysis. Very wide palate and teeth, but orthognathic with wavy hair.

[Atlantid]

His nasal index is probably platyrrhine, or extreme upper end of mesorrhine.

[Noah]

What cranial, dental and hair analysis are you referring to?

Ramesses III's mummy looks rather leptorrhine, if one discounts the obvious wear to the soft parts:

Morton seems to agree:

"The next of these heads which can be identified with its epoch, is that of Amunoph I. This again presents a fine cast of European features; such, in fact, as would embellish a Grecian statue; and yet this monarch reigned in the valley of the Nile, and held his court in Memphis more than eighteen hundred years before the birth of Christ. (Plate XIV., Fig. 1.) And if from this remote period we trace the physiognomy of the kings and queens of the subsequent reigns, we perceive among them many equally beautiful models, some of which are not inferior to the beau ideal of classic art. Take, for example, the heads of Menepthah and Rameses III., in the character of priest, — Rameses X., Rameses XL, and Amenmeses, — the queens Nofre-Ari, and Nitocris, and the daughter of Phisham (or Pihme,) the regent priest, and let me ask among what people we shall find more graceful facial lines, or more varied intellectual expression? (Plate XIV.)"

[Atlantid]

^ From that paragraph he adds: "It may be suggested that in some of these heads the Pelasgic character is not wholly unmixed and especially in reference to Amunoph the First". However he then goes on to say Rameses III is "on other occasions" represented as Egyptian or "Hindoo". The latter Morton often equated to Egyptian, however elsewhere he claims it as non-Caucasian. So its pretty confusing.

Morton divided Caucasians into: Semitic, Egyptian and Pelasgic. Its unclear by what "not wholly unmixed" type he is referring to: either Semitic/Egyptian, or non-Caucasian.

His Caucasian (sub)types are not at all appropiate, although this can probably be excused since his Crania Aegyptiaca is very old. I read the above passage, to infer there was some suggested non-Caucasian traits.

[Atlantid]

Noah i could be talking a load of shit. please excuse me. sometime i read things wrong

[egypt1101]

I went to the Hamitic Library section and clicked the link to Mortons Aegyptica but could not access the book, it said error or something to that effect. This was a few days ago.

[egypt1101]

Dec 30, 2012 19:02:00 GMT -5 Noah said:

"The next of these heads which can be identified with its epoch, is that of Amunoph I. This again presents a fine cast of European features; such, in fact, as would embellish a Grecian statue; and yet this monarch reigned in the valley of the Nile, and held his court in Memphis more than eighteen hundred years before the birth of Christ. (Plate XIV., Fig. 1.) And if from this remote period we trace the physiognomy of the kings and queens of the subsequent reigns, we perceive among them many equally beautiful models, some of which are not inferior to the beau ideal of classic art. Take, for example, the heads of Menepthah and Rameses III., in the character of priest, — Rameses X., Rameses XL, and Amenmeses, — the queens Nofre-Ari, and Nitocris, and the daughter of Phisham (or Pihme,) the regent priest, and let me ask among what people we shall find more graceful facial lines, or more varied intellectual expression? (Plate XIV.)"

LOVE the quote, Noah and thanks for posthing this! Maybe you can scoop up all of the informative quotes (since I cant access it for some reason, but I'll hunt around for another access point on the net), although I am sure Morton offers a magnitude of such important statements throughout in his book.

You know Morton was recently vindicated (about a year ago) by Penn State University from the fallacious comments issued by Stephen Jay Gould. Morton found that the ancient Egyptians were not Negroid, but were Caucasoid.

[egypt1101]

Dec 22, 2012 11:33:08 GMT -5 Atlantid said:

Have you got anything on metric/non-metric analysis of his mummy?

I don't have anything and the quote that Noah provided us with from Morton's book is the first I've seen. Maspero never did a real examination (nor did G.E. Smith). Here is something I found by another poster on another forum:

[Atlantid]

I discovered his cranial index is 73 (dolichocephalic):



This is a passages from Sayce's The Races of the Old Testament (1891). Theres no other indices though.

This seems to be about all there is (+ Morton's analysis). Though if anyone has anything else it would be appreciated.

Coon (1939) also notes this: "high nasal aquilinity, with highly excavated nostrils, seen so typically in the familiar mummy of Rameses III, as in the living emperor of Ethiopia".

In the top photo his nose looks much wider than in the second. So I retract my original comment. Although he's probably mesorrhine than leporrhine. However, note that he has a very wide glabella. The palate/mouth region also look very large.

[Noah]

Dec 30, 2012 20:27:27 GMT -5 egypt1101 said:

LOVE the quote, Noah and thanks for posthing this! Maybe you can scoop up all of the informative quotes (since I cant access it for some reason, but I'll hunt around for another access point on the net), although I am sure Morton offers a magnitude of such important statements throughout in his book.

You know Morton was recently vindicated (about a year ago) by Penn State University from the fallacious comments issued by Stephen Jay Gould. Morton found that the ancient Egyptians were not Negroid, but were Caucasoid.

No sweat.

I recall reading about that Gould affair when it first broke on the blogosphere. Morton's work is quite valuable, so it's good to see the record cleared.

The link seems to be down, but you can download a copy of his Crania Aegyptiaca here.

Dec 30, 2012 21:45:30 GMT -5 Atlantid said:

I discovered his cranial index is 73 (dolichocephalic):



This is a passages from Sayce's The Races of the Old Testament (1891). Theres no other indices though.

This seems to be about all there is (+ Morton's analysis). Though if anyone has anything else it would be appreciated.

Coon (1939) also notes this: "high nasal aquilinity, with highly excavated nostrils, seen so typically in the familiar mummy of Rameses III, as in the living emperor of Ethiopia".

In the top photo his nose looks much wider than in the second. So I retract my original comment. Although he's probably mesorrhine than leporrhine. However, note that he has a very wide glabella. The palate/mouth region also look very large.

Great material. I've added the Sayce book to the Hamitic Library.