Ramesses III's ancestry

[Noah]

Before I forget, Happy New Years guys!

[Atlantid]

^ Thank you, you too.

I noted Morton discusses "austral" types among some Egyptians. Note also Huxley (1870), on this Australoid type:

"A lighter tint of the same colour occupies the area inhabited by the ancient Egyptians and their modern descendants. For, although the Egyptian has been much modified by civilization and probably by admixture, he still retains the dark skin, the black, silky, wavy hair, the long skull, the fleshy lips, and broadish alæ of the nose which we know distinguished his remote ancestors, and which cause both him and them to approach the Australian and the "Dasyu" more nearly than they do any other form of mankind."
aleph0.clarku.edu/huxley/SM3/GeoDis.html

This seems to have gone unnoticed in modern literature.

[Noah]

Jan 1, 2013 11:46:19 GMT -5 Atlantid said:

I noted Morton discusses "austral" types among some Egyptians. Note also Huxley (1870), on this Australoid type[...]

This seems to have gone unnoticed in modern literature.

Huxley was correct in his assertion that the more ancestral Badarians in Egypt were generally cymotrichous in hair form and had a broader nose than the average modern Egyptian. However, he was mistaken about the Badarians' typical skin color. We know this for a fact because many Badarian remains still had relatively well-preserved skin tissue, sufficient for observation.

According to Carleton Coon, the Badarians were typically light brown in pigmentation, or what he refers to as "brunet-white". For reference, this is also how he describes the characteristic color of many Siwa Berbers and the late Ethiopian Emperor Haile Selassie.

"From the type site, Badari, come the earliest skulls of a definitely Egyptian group which have yet been discovered. These Badarians lived about 4000 B.C., after the climate had become considerably drier than it was in Tasian times, so dry, in fact, that in many cases the skin and hair of their dead have been naturally preserved. The skin was apparently brunet white, while the hair was black or dark brown in color, thick, of fine texture, and usually wavy in form."

hamiticunion.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=37

[egypt1101]

Thanks for providing the new link to Morton's Crania Aegyptiaca. Is there another version of this book or is this the only one?

I cant seem to find the quote as seen in reply #7. I thought this was in Crania Aegyptiaca as well. It it in a different book?

What do you guys think if we start a new thread about cephalic indexes?

[egypt1101]

Dec 31, 2012 23:32:35 GMT -5 Noah said:

Before I forget, Happy New Years guys!

Happy New Year to you and all the other members of this forum.

[Atlantid]

Race in Ancient Egypt & the Old Testament. (1993). Scott-Townsend Publishers (edited by R. Peterson).

Note that Sayce's book Races & the Old Testament was edited by anthropologist R. Peterson in 1993 and includes loads of new data on the racial affinities of the ancient egyptians.

www.amazon.com/Race-Ancient-Egypt-Old-Testament/dp/1878465082

Chapters include: Introduction - Race and History - The Study of Race - The Tenth Chapter of Genesis - The Egyptians - Cush - Nubia and Lands to the South - The Semites - The Peoples of Canaan - Beyond Palestine - North Africa and Europe - Conclusion
Based on the original by A.H. Sayce, edited and updated by R. Peterson.
Paperback, 144 pages. Illustrated with 43 figures; one map.

This is a text I overlooked, but strongly recommend.

[Noah]

Jan 3, 2013 20:24:04 GMT -5 egypt1101 said:

Thanks for providing the new link to Morton's Crania Aegyptiaca. Is there another version of this book or is this the only one?

I cant seem to find the quote as seen in reply #7. I thought this was in Crania Aegyptiaca as well. It it in a different book?

What do you guys think if we start a new thread about cephalic indexes?

The linked copy of Morton's Crania Aegyptiaca in the Hamitic Library should work now. The Ramesses III passage is on page 44, but you'll probably want to peruse the whole work. Pretty much every page contains some useful information, and there are many interesting figures, plates, tables and skull descriptions.

Morton suggests that there was a Pelasgic strain present in the ruling class in Ancient Egypt. Overall, he asserts that the Egyptians, Meroites and Ethiopians were all ultimately of the same ancestral Caucasoid stock as the Libyans:

"Of the monumental evidence we have already spoken: we have seen that the proper Egyptian physiognomy, the same which abounds at Thebes, is every where conspicuous on the tombs and temples of the Meroite or monumental Ethiopians. That these people had no affinity, even in the remotest times, to the Negro race, would appear from the evidence already adduced, and also from other facts which remain to be noticed. Among the paintings of the Grand Procession (epoch of Thotmes IV.,) at Thebes, Mr. Hoskins remarks that the Negro is represented with all the characteristic features of his race, but that the Ethiopians are painted red like the Egyptians, having their hair dressed in curls above their foreheads, and in ringlets upon their shoulders (Plate XIV., Fig. 22.) So also in the voyage of Scylax, B. C. 360, the Ethiopians are described as a beautiful people, with long hair and beard ; and the distinguished English traveller just quoted remarks that the heads sculptured on the pyramids of Meroe have a nearly European profile[...]

We have already alluded to the opinion of Prof. Ritter and others, that the old Bejas and the modern Bishareens were derived from the Berber or Libyan stock of nations. I am ready to go farther and adopt the sentiment of the learned Dr. Murray, that the Egyptians and monumental Ethiopians" were of the same lineage, and probably descended from a Libyan tribe.""

[Noah]

Jan 3, 2013 23:12:42 GMT -5 Atlantid said:

Race in Ancient Egypt & the Old Testament. (1993). Scott-Townsend Publishers (edited by R. Peterson).

Note that Sayce's book Races & the Old Testament was edited by anthropologist R. Peterson in 1993 and includes loads of new data on the racial affinities of the ancient egyptians.

www.amazon.com/Race-Ancient-Egypt-Old-Testament/dp/1878465082

Chapters include: Introduction - Race and History - The Study of Race - The Tenth Chapter of Genesis - The Egyptians - Cush - Nubia and Lands to the South - The Semites - The Peoples of Canaan - Beyond Palestine - North Africa and Europe - Conclusion
Based on the original by A.H. Sayce, edited and updated by R. Peterson.
Paperback, 144 pages. Illustrated with 43 figures; one map.

This is a text I overlooked, but strongly recommend.

Seems interesting. Do you have any excerpts?

[egypt1101]

I notice DNATribes associates the two figures below with "black African" populations of "today" (side note: I question the validity of DNATribes claims regarding those two alleles under reply #7:
hamiticunion.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=38&page=1#835:)

These regional matches do not necessarily indicate an exclusively African ancestry for the Amarna pharaonic family. However, results indicate these ancient individuals inherited some alleles that today are more frequent in populations of Africa than in other parts of the world (such as D18S51=19 and D21S11=34).

dnatribes.com/dnatribes-digest-2012-01-01.pdf


I was reviewing these same markers of Ramses III and Unknown Man E. And notice they do not contain the same values:

D18S51=8; 12 (Ramses III)
D18S51=12; 26 (Man E)

D21S11=28; 35 (Ramses III)
D21S11=29.2; 35 (Man E)


If we take DNATribes word at face value, this would seem to imply that Ramses III and Man E were not associated with any "black Africans" of today.

[Noah]

There indeed is clearly something off with the Ramesses III and Unknown Man E results.

I have plugged the autosomal marker values in the study table below into the Earth Human Short Tandem Repeat Allele Frequencies Database (EHSTRAFD)'s Allele Frequency Global Tracking module.

While a few alleles indicate a higher prevalence amongst Sub-Saharan groups, most loci values actually showed strong South Asian and/or Amerindian affinities. In fact, many alleles appeared to be completely absent from the database's Sub-Saharan reference populations (which are extensive).

Below is a summary of the population affinities for each allele across all eight autosomal loci.

RAMESSES III

Locus: D13S317

Allele: 9 (1st parent)

1. Huastecos Amerindian - San Luis Potosi, Mexico (37.64%)
2. Native American - Northern Ontario, Canada (36.4%)
3. Huasteco Amerindian - Huasteca, Mexico (36.4%)
4. Otomi Amerindian - Tenango de Doria & San Bartolo Tutotepec, Mexico (35.5%)
5. Hna-hnu Amerindian - Hidalgo, Mexico (34.94%)

Population affinity: Amerindian

Allele: 12 (2nd parent)

1. Guinean - Guinea-Bissau (48%)
2. Arab - Zriba, Tunisia (47.8%)
3. Afro-Caribbean - United Kingdom (45.5%)
4. African American - Jamaica (45.49%)
5. Berber - Ghardaia, Algeria (44.3%)

Population affinity: West African, Northwest African

Locus: D7S820

Allele: 6 (1st parent)

1. Madia-Gond - Maharashtra, India (8%)
2. Katkari - Maharashtra, India (6.2%)
3. Asian-derived Brazilian - Sao Paulo, Brazil (1.8%)
4. Thakur - Uttar Pradesh, India (1.4%)
5. Jat - Uttar Pradesh, India (1.2%)

Population affinity: South Asian

Allele: 15 (2nd parent)

1. Buddhist - Ladakh, India (2.8%)
2. Katkari - Maharashtra, India (1.6%)
3. Berber - Southern Morocco (1%)
4. Northern Arab - Dubai Emirate, United Arab Emirates (0.5%)
5. Chinese - Eastern China (0.5%)

Population affinity: Asian, Berber

Locus: D2S1338

Allele: 15 (1st parent)

1. Han - Shandong, China (6.4%)
2. Gabonese - Gabon (1.9%)
3. Lithuanian - North-Eastern Poland (1.4%)
4. Turk - Marmara Reg., Turkey (0.9%)
5. Fang - Bioko, Equatorial Guinea (0.83%)

Population affinity: Chinese, General

Allele: 28 (2nd parent)

1. Turk - Eastern Mediterranean Reg., Turkey (0.9%)
2. Chaoshan - Chaoshan, China (0.4%)
3. Turk - Aegean Reg., Turkey (0.3%)
4. Han - Jilin, China (0.3%)
5. Italian - Italy (0.2%)

Population affinity: Turkic

Locus: D21S11

Allele: 28 (1st parent)

1. African American - California, United States (28.5%)
2. Hutu - Nyarurema, Rwanda (28.43%)
3. Colombian - Choco & San Andres, Colombia (28%)
4. African American - Jamaica (27.32%)
5. Fang - Bioko, Equatorial Guinea (27.05%)

Population affinity: Sub-Saharan African, Colombian

Allele: 35 (2nd parent)

1. Guinean - Guinea-Bissau (6.5%)
2. African American - Florida, United States (4.79%)
3. Thakur - Uttar Pradesh, India (4.7%)
4. Gabonese - Gabon (4.2%)
5. African American - Jamaica (4.12%)

Population affinity: West African, Indian

Locus: D16S539

Allele: 8 (1st parent)

1. Jat - Uttar Pradesh, India (12.8%)
2. Tibetan - Gannan, China (12.2%)
3. Tamil - Tamil Nadu, India (12.08%)
4. Madia-Gond - Maharashtra, India (12%)
5. Katkari - Maharashtra, India (10.8%)

Population affinity: Indian, Tibetan

Allele: 11 (2nd parent)

1. Inupiat - Northern Alaska, United States (61.47%)
2. Arab - Zriba, Tunisia (45.5%)
3. Madia-Gond - Maharashtra, India (44%)
4. Yemenit - Dubai Emirate, United Arab Emirates (41.1%)
5. Yadav - Bihar, India (39.5%)

Population affinity: Siberian, Tunisian, Yemeni, Indian

Locus: D18S51

Allele: 8 (1st parent)

1. Katkari - Maharashtra, India (2.8%)
2. Pawara - Maharashtra, India (0.9%)
3. South Korean - South Korea (0.2%)
4. Caucasian - Transylvania, Romania (0.2%)
5. South Korean - South Korea (0.2%)

Population affinity: Indian, General Eurasian

Allele: 12 (2nd parent)

1. Egyptian - Cairo, Egypt (23.6%)
2. Kurmi - Bihar, India (20.4%)
3. Male - Madeira, Portugal (20%)
4. Basque - Alava, Spain (19.59%)
5. Northern Arab - Dubai Emirate, United Arab Emirates (19%)

Population affinity: Egyptian, Indian, Southern European, Gulf Arab

Locus: CSF1PO

Allele: 7 (1st parent)

1. Guinean - Guinea-Bissau (11%)
2. Angolan - Cabinda, Angola (8.18%)
3. African American - Alabama, United States (8.06%)
4. Hutu - Nyarurema, Rwanda (8%)
5. Afro-Caribbean - United Kingdom (7.6%)

Population affinity: Sub-Saharan African

Allele: 10 (2nd parent)

1. Arab - Zriba, Tunisia (63.6%)
2. Native American - Northern Ontario, Canada (37.6%)
3. Filipino - Eastern Visayas, Philippines (37.5%)
4. Saudi Arabian - Riyadh, Saudi Arabia (37.3%)
5. Eastern Polynesian - New Zealand (36.904%)

Population affinity: Tunisian, Amerinidian, Southeast Asian, Gulf Arab

Locus: FGA

Allele: 24 (1st parent)

1. Baiti - Ladakh, India (29.3%)
2. Pawara - Maharashtra, India (27.6%)
3. Bamileke - Cameroon (25%)
4. Tamil - Southern India (25%)
5. Ximeng - Inner Mongolia, China (24.9%)

Population affinity: Indian, Cameroonian, Chinese

Allele: 34.2 (2nd parent)

1. Brazilian - South-Central Brazil (?)
2. Iranian - Dubai Emirate, United Arab Emirates (0%)
3. Oman - Oman (0%)
4. Indian - Malaysia (0%)
5. Chinese - Malaysia (0%)

Population affinity: Unclear - rare allele

---

UNKNOWN MAN E

Locus: D13S317

Allele: 9 (1st parent)

1. Huastecos Amerindian - San Luis Potosi, Mexico (37.64%)
2. Native American - Northern Ontario, Canada (36.4%)
3. Huasteco Amerindian - Huasteca, Mexico (36.4%)
4. Otomi Amerindian - Tenango de Doria & San Bartolo Tutotepec, Mexico (35.5%)
5. Hna-hnu Amerindian - Hidalgo, Mexico (34.94%)

Population affinity: Amerindian

Allele: 13 (2nd parent)

1. African - Choco, Colombia (27.65%)
2. Colombian - Bogota, Colombia (26.22%)
3. Saharawis - Western Sahara (22.1%)
4. Colombian - Antioquia, Colombia (21.3%)
5. Fang - Bioko, Equatorial Guinea (20.8%)

Population affinity: West African, West Saharan

Locus: D7S820

Allele: 6 (1st parent)

1. Madia-Gond - Maharashtra, India (8%)
2. Katkari - Maharashtra, India (6.2%)
3. Asian-derived Brazilian - Sao Paulo, Brazil (1.8%)
4. Thakur - Uttar Pradesh, India (1.4%)
5. Jat - Uttar Pradesh, India (1.2%)

Population affinity: South Asian, Amerindian

Allele: 13 (2nd parent)

1. Baiti - Ladakh, India (14.7%)
2. Thakur - Uttar Pradesh, India (12.9%)
3. Honduras - Honduras (8.49%)
4. Berber - Ghardaia, Algeria (8%)
5. Han - South-Eastern China (7.1%)

Population affinity: Indian, Berber, Chinese

Locus: D2S1338

Allele: 19 (1st parent)

1. Huasteco Amerindian - Huasteca, Mexico (39.2%)
2. Otomi Amerindian - Tenango de Doria & San Bartolo Tutotepec, Mexico (29%)
3. Mestizo - Valley of Mexico, Mexico (26.9%)
4. Malay - Malaysia (24.3%)
5. Thai - Thailand (24.2%)

Population affinity: Amerindian, Southeast Asian

Allele: 28 (2nd parent)

1. Turk - Eastern Mediterranean Reg., Turkey (0.9%)
2. Chaoshan - Chaoshan, China (0.4%)
3. Turk - Aegean Reg., Turkey (0.3%)
4. Han - Jilin, China (0.3%)
5. Italian - Italy (0.2%)

Population affinity: Turkish, Chinese, Italian

Locus: D21S11

Allele: 29.2 (1st parent)

1. Otomi-Amerindian - Cardonal, Mexico (32.2%)
2. Huasteco Amerindian - Huasteca, Mexico (30.8%)
3. Otomi Amerindian - Tenango de Doria & San Bartolo Tutotepec, Mexico (21%)
4. Katkari - Maharashtra, India (4.3%)
5. Pawara - Maharashtra, India (3%)

Population affinity: Amerindian

Allele: 35 (2nd parent)

1. Guinean - Guinea-Bissau (6.5%)
2. African American - Florida, United States (4.79%)
3. Thakur - Uttar Pradesh, India (4.7%)
4. Gabonese - Gabon (4.2%)
5. African American - Jamaica (4.12%)

Population affinity: West African, Indian

Locus: D16S539

Allele: 8 (1st parent)

1. Jat - Uttar Pradesh, India (12.8%)
2. Tibetan - Gannan, China (12.2%)
3. Tamil - Tamil Nadu, India (12.08%)
4. Madia-Gond - Maharashtra, India (12%)
5. Katkari - Maharashtra, India (10.8%)

Population affinity: Indian

Allele: 12 (2nd parent)

1. Apache - United States (39.9%)
2. Basque - Alava, Spain (38.61%)
3. Old Believers - North-Eastern Poland (38.6%)
4. Old Believers - North-Eastern Poland (38.6%)
5. Byelorussian - North-Eastern Poland (37.7%)

Population affinity: Amerindian, Basque, Central European

Locus: D18S51

Allele: 12 (1st parent)

1. Egyptian - Cairo, Egypt (23.6%)
2. Kurmi - Bihar, India (20.4%)
3. Male - Madeira, Portugal (20%)
4. Basque - Alava, Spain (19.59%)
5. Northern Arab - Dubai Emirate, United Arab Emirates (19%)

Population affinity: Egyptian, Indian, Iberian, Gulf Arab

Allele: 26 (2nd parent)

1. Thakur - Uttar Pradesh, India (6%)
2. Jat - Uttar Pradesh, India (2.2%)
3. East Timor - East Timor (0.5%)
4. East Timor - East Timor (0.3%)
5. Adi Pasi - Arunachal Pradesh, India (0.3%)

Population affinity: Indian

Locus: CSF1PO

Allele: 7 (1st parent)

1. Guinean - Guinea-Bissau (11%)
2. Angolan - Cabinda, Angola (8.18%)
3. African American - Alabama, United States (8.06%)
4. Hutu - Nyarurema, Rwanda (8%)
5. Afro-Caribbean - United Kingdom (7.6%)

Population affinity: Sub-Saharan African

Allele: 10 (2nd parent)

1. Arab - Zriba, Tunisia (63.6%)
2. Native American - Northern Ontario, Canada (37.6%)
3. Filipino - Eastern Visayas, Philippines (37.5%)
4. Saudi Arabian - Riyadh, Saudi Arabia (37.3%)
5. Eastern Polynesian - New Zealand (36.904%)

Population affinity: Tunisian, Amerindian, Southeast Asian, Gulf Arab

Locus: FGA

Allele: 24 (1st parent)

1. Baiti - Ladakh, India (29.3%)
2. Pawara - Maharashtra, India (27.6%)
3. Bamileke - Cameroon (25%)
4. Tamil - Southern India (25%)
5. Ximeng - Inner Mongolia, China (24.9%)

Population affinity: Indian, Cameroonian, Chinese

Allele: 26 (2nd parent)

1. Mestizo - Guatemala (14.5%)
2. Otomi Amerindian - Tenango de Doria & San Bartolo Tutotepec, Mexico (14%)
3. Hna-hnu Amerindian - Hidalgo, Mexico (13.86%)
4. Argentine - Salta, Argentina (12.5%)
5. Argentine - Neuquen, Argentina (12.16%)

Population affinity: Amerindian

[egypt1101]

Thank you Noah for your extensive research in this area!

The affinities with AmerIndians would seem to imply Ramses descends from the M168 Eurasian Adam lineage and is by default, a member of the E haplogroup. E is a direct descendent of DE. AmerIndians descend from D. I think this would explain the affinities.

[Noah]

I believe Ramesses III is the oldest haplogroup E1b1a carrier tested so far whose autosomal markers are also available. If those allele values are legitimate and not another mess up, we may be looking here at the first concrete bits of evidence supporting an Asian origin for M168; if not for haplogroup E.

Oh, the irony!

[alaujani]

According to Egyptian and arab tradition. some of the pharoahs were of arab origin

[Noah]

Jan 15, 2013 17:34:17 GMT -5 alaujani said:

According to Egyptian and arab tradition. some of the pharoahs were of arab origin

Modern Egyptians are Arabized to a degree. However, most understand that they are actually descended from the older Nile Valley peoples of Pharaonic times and earlier.

The Ancient Egyptians themselves were of Hamitic origin. They also consistently differentiated themselves from Semitic peoples. Despite this, the AE were related to Semites since both Hamitic and Semitic peoples are ultimately of Afro-Asiatic or Hamito-Semitic stock.

Have a look at the book A Sketch of Semitic Origins: Social and Religious in the Hamitic Library for more on this.

[alaujani]

I wasnt talking about the egyptians who were ruled. I was talking about the rulers. Egyptians trace their lineage to ham, but there were amalekites who over ran them and ruled them.