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Post by theleader9 on Aug 13, 2011 3:41:39 GMT -5
Eastern Hamities are purer then northen ( Berber) Hamities.
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Post by Noah on Aug 13, 2011 7:09:09 GMT -5
That's inaccurate and I'll tell you why. All Hamitic groups have significant admixture. But this admixture is overwhelmingly (or in many cases, almost entirely) concentrated in their respective lower-status clan groupings. The ruling or noble clans almost always represent the purer Hamitic strain. That is partly why they are the noble clans in the first place i.e. they're the keepers, as it were, of the Hamitic tradition, culture, languages, and above all, ancestry.
It's typically Afrocentrists that like to promote the idea that Eastern Hamitic groups are the 'purer' ones. They do this because they also enjoy deluding themselves that Eastern Hamites are related to them. Under this absurd scenario, Western Hamitic groups would thus simply be 'black' Eastern Hamites that have been adulterated by European concubine mtDNA. That's why Berbers and many Maghrebans tend to be lighter-skinned, see? lol Well, those studies above (among many others) of course make a mockery of that notion.
You're not turning Afrocentric on us now, are you Leader? If so, I'm afraid I'll have to ban you brother. ;D
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Post by theleader9 on Aug 13, 2011 13:19:12 GMT -5
No my friend I haven't turn Afrocentric but a good discussion is always needed My good friend are you telling me that some these people are not descended of European or Arabid ( though minor) mathildasanthropologyblog.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/moroccan-moors1.jpg ( p.s am not using mathilda here just the picture) and given their close proximity to Europe and the history of conquest from Rome and such.
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Post by theleader9 on Aug 13, 2011 13:21:46 GMT -5
Most of the people in the pic I posted are mostly Hamitic but there are few suspicious ones and again am not saying admixture was large or anything.
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Post by theleader9 on Aug 13, 2011 13:25:21 GMT -5
This also goes to the SSA looking darker Berbers who received west African admixture.
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Post by hamiticsister101 on Aug 13, 2011 15:17:45 GMT -5
The purest Berbers are the ones who look European, and the darker ones who are pure ones are the ones who look Eastern Hamitic not West African/Negroid.
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Post by theleader9 on Aug 13, 2011 17:57:17 GMT -5
That's inaccurate and I'll tell you why. All Hamitic groups have significant admixture. But this admixture is overwhelmingly (or in many cases, almost entirely) concentrated in their respective lower-status clan groupings. @ Noah I didn't see this part of your post brother I( mind me I was up all night lol) but yes I agree with you here but you cant deny that certain Berbers have Euro admixture.
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Post by Noah on Aug 13, 2011 18:14:52 GMT -5
@ Leader True; a good discussion is always needed. However, as explained on the Welcome page, this board is different from others in that there is a zero tolerance policy for Afrocentrism/Negrocentrism (covert or otherwise). People can get that stuff on any other forum. This message board is reserved for Hamites and their genuine allies only. As such, it won't be derailed by any nonsense. As a member of the Hamitic Union, I figured you already knew what Egyptians were. But to answer your question anyway, Egyptians are Caucasoids, by and large from the Hamitic sub-group of the Mediterranean branch. That collage you linked to above is a mixture of various peoples from Egypt, not all of whom are of Hamitic stock (though most are). For instance, there's one older lady in the middle that is clearly predominantly Negroid, with very little to do with Hamitoforms. The blonde folk are simply Western Hamites, as can be found in the Atlas Mountains in the Maghreb with remarkable consistency. Blondism is an old adaptive trait in Hamitic peoples, where it enjoys a minority incidence (as it does in other Mediterranean populations). It has also been written about for centuries and depicted on ancient Egyptian murals, so it's not something that was introduced recently by foreign peoples. For example: "Greatly, indeed, did Phoibos rejoice as the belted warriors of Enyo danced with the yellow-haired Libyan women, when the appointed season of the Karneian feast came round" -- Callimachus, Hymn II to Apollo, 85 (3rd century BC)
''And there live around it all the Gyzantes Libyes, a community, and a city beyond (the lake) towards the sun’s setting; for all these Gyzantes Libyes are said to be all blonde-haired and very beautiful" -- The Periplus of Pseudo-Scylax (4th century BC)
''This band with Libyan, that with auburn hair'' -- Lucan. Pharsalia, 10. 155 (61 AD)
"But when I saw that the statue of Athena had blue eyes I found out that the legend about them is Libyan. For the Libyans have a saying that the Goddess is the daughter of Poseidon and Lake Tritonis, and for this reason has blue eyes like Poseidon." -- Pausanias (1. 14. 6) That's not even mentioning the many light-haired, Caucasoid ancient Egyptian mummies. "Hair color is a fascinating study in itself, and the wide range of shades portrayed in Egyptian art does, to a large extent, reflect the diverse range found in reality. The most common hair color then, as now, was a very dark brown, almost black color, although natural auburn and even (rather surprisingly) blonde hair are also to be found. With their great fondness for elaboration, the Egyptians’ skillful use of dyes has produced yet further shades for us to study, analysis showing many to be various forms of henna, which even an aged Rameses II had used regularly to rejuvenate his white hair. The vast majority of hair samples discovered at the site were cynotrichous (Caucasian) in type as opposed to heliotrichous (Negroid), a feature which is standard through dynastic times"
It should not come as a surprise, then, that modern Egyptians and other Hamitic peoples in general also show markedly Caucasoid physical forms. Cranial studies, among other morphological analyses, have demonstrated this for decades. Uniparental markers and autosomal DNA work have only helped solidify this understanding by backing the skeletal data with hard genetic evidence. Studies like the autosomal paper below on modern Upper/Southern Egyptians: "Multi-dimensional scaling (MDS) based on pair-wise FST genetic distances of Upper Egyptian and other diverse global populations. OCE, Oceanian; ME, Middle Eastern; NAF, North African; EAS, East Asian; SSA, sub-Saharan African; UEGY, Upper Egyptian; SAS, South Asian; EUR, European. The figure shows that Oceania and American populations are very distant from Upper Egyptians (marked by a grey triangle) and other populations. The Upper Egyptian population is closer to the Middle Eastern, North African, South Asian and European populations than others."
By the way, Ancient Egyptian skulls have already been compared to those of modern Negroid Egyptians (like the old lady in that collage), and there's no relation. The Negroid Egyptian skulls cluster with comparatively pure Negroid peoples in other parts of East Africa like Sudan, Kenya and Uganda, with a slight pull toward the Hamitic cranial series. This is what one would expect from Nilotes who have acquired some Hamitic admixture. Only actual Hamitic peoples, such as those found in North Africa and the Horn region, cluster closely with the Ancient Egyptian remains. And that's because, prior to the penetration of northeast Africa by Nilotic Negroid peoples, the area was largely inhabited by a more or less unbroken stretch of Eastern Hamitic peoples extending from Egypt/Libya through to the Horn. "it is strange to note that the modern Hamite Ethiopian series (Tigre) and even Somali-Galla remain virtually exempt of any black contribution. The Ethiopian plateaus must therefore have remained far from the currents of black immigration which took the natural route of the Nile, whether during the dynastic period or later and more intensively, from the beginning of our era on[...] The entire Upper Egypt series from the fourth millennium up to the Roman period may be grouped inside a relatively narrow band located in the interval for the C2H distance between 0.17 and 0.27 for the men and 0.15-0.35 for the women. The Nubians of the dynastic age, except for those of the group C, are found precisely in these zones to which a common morphological type corresponds. Although related to the above Middle Egypt type, they differ from it by a narrow head, a lower face and a broader nose. During the dynastic era, this last variety covered a wide central zone of the Nile valley, stretching well beyond towards East Africa, as shown by the similarity which persists with the present-day Ethiopian populations (Tigre) or even Somali. By virtue both of its diffusion and its perenniality, they deserve to be assimilated to the basic population type of the Egypto-Nubian complex."
www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0047248477800961
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Post by theleader9 on Aug 13, 2011 18:25:53 GMT -5
@noah "Only actual Hamitic peoples, such as those found in North Africa and the Horn region, cluster closely with the Ancient Egyptian remains. And that's because, prior to the penetration of northeast Africa by Nilotic Negroid peoples, the area was largely inhabited by a more or less unbroken stretch of Eastern Hamitic peoples extending from Egypt/Libya through to the Horn."
Yep in fact many eastern cushtic people are from southern Egypt and Libya. (p.s most of the people in that collage were not Egyptians )
"As a member of the Hamitic Union, I figured you already knew what Egyptians were. But to answer your question anyway, Egyptians are Caucasoids, by and large from the Hamitic sub-group of the Mediterranean branch."
I do
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Post by Noah on Aug 13, 2011 18:28:37 GMT -5
That begs the question, who then are Egyptians in your opinion, Leader? Please answer as candidly and forthrightly as possible. Don't hold anything back.
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Post by theleader9 on Aug 13, 2011 18:34:07 GMT -5
@ Noah
Egyptians were/are the melting pot of the hamitic world where both eastern and western hamitic intermarried with the dominance of eastern hamities and then put a little tiny bit of euroasian ( Greek, Turks ,even less Arabids). many Greeks them selfs are part hamities.
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Post by Noah on Aug 13, 2011 18:40:32 GMT -5
Agreed Leader. Egyptians were a Hamitic people... a mixture of both Western and Eastern Hamitic elements. The Western Hamites were mostly concentrated in Lower/Northern Egypt, whereas the Eastern Hamites dominated Upper/Southern Egypt.
There were indeed also additional admixture elements from the Near East and Europe (mainly in Dynastic times), but also from Sub-Saharan Africa through the form of Nilotic peoples that arrived by way of Sudan.
The core population (including the ruling class) was, however, Hamitic.
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Post by theleader9 on Aug 13, 2011 18:45:18 GMT -5
Oh i forgot about the Nilotic people but yes you are right about the core being Hamitic.
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Post by theleader9 on Aug 13, 2011 18:49:37 GMT -5
Ok so now we can agree on the fact that all Hamities are largely pure with each group ( eastern and western) having minimum admixture from surrounding races and different environment all constituting the slight differences between both groups.
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Post by Noah on Aug 13, 2011 18:49:47 GMT -5
Yeah, the Nilotes were there too. But as cranial studies, among other analyses, clearly show, they have no relation to the Ancient Egyptians.
They were just foreigners in Egypt.
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