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Post by Atlantid on Nov 3, 2012 13:38:33 GMT -5
Thread to discuss the theory Khoisanids/Capoids or the Bushmen originated in North Africa or who are indigenous to North Africa.
Also there appears to be a lot of evidence of Australoids around prehistoric Egypt, Nubia etc.
Anyway here's my personal time model of races in North Africa-
Early Upper Palaeolithic: Khoisanids Late Upper Palaeolithic: Caucasoids arrive from near-east and europe around 15,000 - 12,000 BC.
An Australoid wave probably occurred between these two.
Evidence for Khoisanids in North Africa:
(a) Prehistoric Bushmen art in Algeria. These appear to show Bushmanoid traits such as the horizontal penis.
(b) A modern craniometric analysis of the Nazlet Khater skeleton identifies it as Khoisanid.
(c) The Singa skull from Sudan - supposedly Khoisanid/Bushmen according to various anthropologists.
(d) Egypt prehistoric figures show Bushman steatopygia.
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Post by Noah on Nov 3, 2012 20:38:46 GMT -5
What is the evidence for Australoids in Egypt, Nubia, etc.?
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Post by Atlantid on Nov 4, 2012 7:47:54 GMT -5
What is the evidence for Australoids in Egypt, Nubia, etc.? Excluding the Capoid skulls, all the early North African crania most closely resemble Australoids such as the Afalou specimens, which have large brow ridges, wide noses, sloping foreheads, depressed nasal roots, large teeth and some prognathism. "Not one of the Afalou skulls is actually leptorrhine. This feature, combined with the sloping forehead and heavy browridges, serves to differentiate the types in the two continents." (Coon, 1939) The Afalou, and later Mechtoid types sharply differ to the Cro-Magnon (Caucasoids) of the same era. Coon claimed the Afalou and related Mechtoids were Neanderthal admixed to explain their robust features, wide noses etc. This claim he later retracted (1965) and asserts the entire Afalou series is "non-Caucasoid". The obvious answer here is that they are Australoid based on their cranial indices and nonmetrics. At the same time the large brow ridge development and nasal root depressions rules out any Negroid affinity. In Nubia and Egypt many of the early crania appear as above described. Smith & Jones in their Archaeological Report on Nubia (1907-1908) report numerous Australoid specimens, while Huxley (1870) believed there was an Australoid component in ancient egypt: "A lighter tint of the same colour occupies the area inhabited by the ancient Egyptians and their modern descendants. For, although the Egyptian has been much modified by civilization and probably by admixture, he still retains the dark skin, the black, silky, wavy hair, the long skull, the fleshy lips, and broadish alæ of the nose which we know distinguished his remote ancestors, and which cause both him and them to approach the Australian and the "Dasyu" more nearly than they do any other form of mankind." aleph0.clarku.edu/huxley/SM3/GeoDis.htmlRobert Gayre (1965) believed the indigenous North Africans were "Melanoids", meaning African-Australoids.
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Post by Atlantid on Nov 4, 2012 7:56:13 GMT -5
The earliest evidence of Caucasoids in North Africa, comes from the Caspians c. 10,000 BC. They were mostly likely the earliest proto-Berber speakers.
Chamla (1980, 1986) in her craniometric studies distinguishes between the non-Caucasoid Afalou, and the "palaeomediterranean" Caucasoid Caspians.
In earlier literature you can find the Afalou crania being called Caucasoid. However this view is erroneous. Coon (1965) updated his research on this, and admits they arn't Caucasoids.
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Post by Noah on Nov 4, 2012 21:30:38 GMT -5
The Iberomaurusians/Mechtoids are typically regarded as archaic Caucasoids. The primitive traits they possess, such as broad nasal openings and some prognathism, are usually characterized as archaic retentions. Craniometrically, the Iberomaurusians cluster with Cro-Magnons in particular, but also with the Capsians and other specimens inhabiting the Green Sahara; namely, the early Holocene Kiffians of Gobero. While also Caucasoid, the mid-Holocene Tenerians of Gobero are outliers here since they are of a leaner, smaller type (some Kiffians were well over 6 feet in height). The much older Aterians are outliers as well. "Plot of first two principal components extracted from a mean matrix for 17 craniometric variables (Tables 4, 7) in 9 human populations (Table 3) from the Late Pleistocene through the mid-Holocene from the Maghreb and southern Sahara. Seven trans-Saharan populations cluster together, whereas Late Pleistocene Aterians (Ater) and the mid-Holocene population at Gobero (Gob-m) are striking outliers. Axes are scaled by the square root of the corresponding eigenvalue for the principal component. Abbreviations: Ater, Aterian; EMC, eastern Maghreb Capsian; EMI, eastern Maghreb Iberomaurusian; Gob-e, Gobero early Holocene; Gob-m, Gobero mid-Holocene; Mali, Hassi-el-Abiod, Mali; Maur, Mauritania; WMC, western Maghreb Capsian; WMI, western Maghreb Iberomaurusian[...]
Principal components analysis of craniometric variables closely allies the early Holocene occupants at Gobero, who were buried with Kiffian material culture, with Late Pleistocene to mid-Holocene humans from the Maghreb and southern Sahara referred to as Iberomaurusians, Capsians and “Mechtoids.” Outliers to this cluster of populations include an older Aterian sample and the mid-Holocene occupants at Gobero associated with Tenerean material culture."
www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0002995?imageURI=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0002995.t003
Further, some Iberomaurusian remains were recently tested for ancient DNA. Their mtDNA consisted of various West Eurasian maternal clades, with no Sub-Saharan input. Interestingly, they also lacked M1 lineages. This is one of the most common Eurasian maternal haplogroups today in North Africa and the Horn. Its absence amongst the Iberomaurusians suggests that M1 was brought later by the Capsians, who probably introduced the Afro-Asiatic languages as well (I suspect the Iberomaurusians originally spoke a Basque-like language). "The population exhumed from the archaeological site of Taforalt in Morocco (12,000 years BP) is a valuable source of information toward a better knowledge of the settlement of Northern Africa region and provides a revolutionary way to specify the origin of Ibero-Maurusian populations. Ancient DNA was extracted from 31 bone remains from Taforalt. The HVS1 fragment of the mitochondrial DNA control region was PCR-amplified and directly sequenced. Mitochondrial diversity in Taforalt shows the absence of sub-Saharan haplogroups suggesting that Ibero-Maurusian individuals had not originated in sub-Saharan region. Our results reveal a probable local evolution of Taforalt population and a genetic continuity in North Africa."
cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=17187930
More on Iberomaurusian and Capsian origins: "Attested presence of Caucasian people in Northern Africa goes up to Paleolithic times. From the archaeological record it has been proposed that, as early as 45,000 years ago (ya), anatomically modern humans, most probably expanded the Aterian stone industry from the Maghrib into most of the Sahara [1]. More evolved skeletal remains indicate that 20,000 years later the Iberomaurusian makers, replaced the Aterian culture in the coastal Maghrib. Several hypothesis have been forwarded concerning the Iberomaurusian origin. They can be resumed in those which propose an arrival, from the East, either from the Near East or Eastern Africa, and those which point to west Mediterranean Europe, either from the Iberian Peninsula, across the Gibraltar Strait, or from Italy, via Sicily, as their most probable homeland [2]. Between 10,000 and 6,000 ya the Neolithic Capsian industry flourished farther inland. The historic penetration in the area of classical Mediterranean cultures, ending with the Islamic domination, supposed a strong cultural influx. However, it seems that the demic impact was not strong enough to modify the prehistoric genetic pool. Linguistic research suggests that the Afroasiatic phylum of languages could have originated and extended with these Caucasians, either from the Near East or Eastern Africa and that posterior developments of the Capsian Neolithic in the Maghrib might be related to the origin and dispersal of proto-Berber speaking people into the area [3]. Nowadays, the Berber speakers, scattered throughout Northwest Africa from the Atlantic to the Lybic desert and from the Mediterranean shores to the south of the Sahel, are considered the genuine descendants of those prehistoric colonizers. Some important issues are pending of resolution to clarify the past and present of the North African Caucasians: To which extent the Neolithic waves substituted the Paleolithic recipients? Which is the most probable origin of these prehistoric occupants? Did they come from Europe, East Africa, Southwest Asia or are they a result of an "in situ" evolution? Is there a correspondence between the Afroasiatic diversification and the spread of Caucasians?"
www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/1471-2156-4-15.pdf
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Post by Atlantid on Nov 5, 2012 12:28:56 GMT -5
The Iberomaurusians/Mechtoids are typically regarded as archaic Caucasoids. The primitive traits they possess, such as broad nasal openings and some prognathism, are usually characterized as archaic retentions. While the Upper Paleolithic ancestors of Caucasoids were more robust, they were not excessively at all, only something like 5% thicker in crania and indices. Wide noses are not Caucasoid. Also the term "archaic Caucasoid/archaic White" can mean Australoid, this is because a theory asserts Australoids and Caucasoids branched from a common ancestor and that Australoids have retained closer to this early Pleistocene morphology (however this is far further back in time). Wide noses in UP/Mesolithic specimens, cannot be equated to Caucasoids. The Caucasoid line - Cro-Magnons had thin noses during this time. A few indices they match, but nasal index they sharply differ. Non-metric features such as very deep nasal/nasion depressions also rules these out as Caucasoids. I see Australoids when looking at these skulls.
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Post by preddinarid on Nov 5, 2012 16:30:53 GMT -5
The Iberomaurusians/Mechtoids are typically regarded as archaic Caucasoids. The primitive traits they possess, such as broad nasal openings and some prognathism, are usually characterized as archaic retentions. While the Upper Paleolithic ancestors of Caucasoids were more robust, they were not excessively at all, only something like 5% thicker in crania and indices. Wide noses are not Caucasoid. Also the term "archaic Caucasoid/archaic White" can mean Australoid, this is because a theory asserts Australoids and Caucasoids branched from a common ancestor and that Australoids have retained closer to this early Pleistocene morphology (however this is far further back in time). Wide noses in UP/Mesolithic specimens, cannot be equated to Caucasoids. The Caucasoid line - Cro-Magnons had thin noses during this time. A few indices they match, but nasal index they sharply differ. Non-metric features such as very deep nasal/nasion depressions also rules these out as Caucasoids. I see Australoids when looking at these skulls. Actually, Alpinid's and East Baltics have broader, less defined noses near the tip of the nose. It is fleshier but still Caucasoid.
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Post by Noah on Nov 5, 2012 20:06:17 GMT -5
Wide noses in UP/Mesolithic specimens, cannot be equated to Caucasoids. The Caucasoid line - Cro-Magnons had thin noses during this time. Many archaic humans had broad noses, including prehistoric specimens in Europe (think cavemen). It's through the evolutionary gracilization process that they reduced in size. For example, on the horizontal axis in the plot below, the Taforalt and Afalou Iberomaurusian samples have a comparable nasal profile to the Combe Capelle and Grotte des Enfants/Grimaldi specimens from Europe. Iberomaurusians/Mechta-Afalou skulls: I see Australoids when looking at these skulls. Their metrics can be seen in the first plot above, which cross-analysed multiple cranial variables. Genetically, the Iberomaurusians were also found to possess West Eurasian maternal lineages.
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Post by hamiticsister101 on Nov 10, 2012 23:15:59 GMT -5
Australoids (who resemble Neanderthals by the way) might have been an early form of Caucasians, but you also had Cro-Magnons which still exist today usually known as "Block heads" "squared" looking Caucasians these people are Alpinoids which inhabit Europe today. Both Australoids and Alpinoids (Cro-Magnons) were representations of early Caucasians. The Abkhazian peoples of Georgia are black skinned Australoids that still live and have survived in Georgia there are only 2 pics of them online.
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Post by hamiticsister101 on Nov 10, 2012 23:18:48 GMT -5
Let me tell you that among Somali females there is a high precentage of them having Alpinoid features, at least 45% of Somali females have Alpinoid features, and another 45% Nordic, and another 10% Semitic features. This is due to the fact that the Mt-DNA of Somali females originates from the Mid-East and Southern Europe. Whilst Somali Y-DNA (Male) comes from the Levant (E1b).
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Post by Atlantid on Nov 11, 2012 19:05:07 GMT -5
Let me tell you that among Somali females there is a high precentage of them having Alpinoid features, at least 45% of Somali females have Alpinoid features, and another 45% Nordic, and another 10% Semitic features. This is due to the fact that the Mt-DNA of Somali females originates from the Mid-East and Southern Europe. Whilst Somali Y-DNA (Male) comes from the Levant (E1b). Nordids and Medish types are very similar (identical in some types) of cranial features. However, they arn't similar all in pigmentation. Somalis don't have a 45% appearance of Nordid traits like blondism or light eyes. Blonde hair though does exist in Somalis at a very low figure though, it won't though be the flaxen or very pale Scandinavian yellow. The "blondism" you get in a small percentage of somalis is a dull golden colour. Eye colours? I'm sure Noah has some data.
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Post by Atlantid on Nov 11, 2012 19:11:52 GMT -5
^ There is no shame in having dark hair and eye colour. I've noticed in some of your posts you are claiming a far too high amount of somalis have fair/red hair or light eyes. Jeeze, those don't even run at 10% in most parts of southern europe (unless you start including hazel or "medium" colours as "light"). When you get to Africa they are all well under 5%. I used to be on several forums where people were claiming Berbers are over 40% blonde. lol. People look up to lighter colours for their asethetic value, but unfortuantly end up deluding themselves how many are actually blondes or light eyed. I've noticed some caucasoid africans are ashamed to admit they are "dark" in hair etc. There is really no need to be.
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Post by hamiticsister101 on Nov 11, 2012 23:17:56 GMT -5
I meant Nordics in the sense of the high foreheads, the pointy small noses, high cheek bones, narrow faces, wavy=curly hairs, and tall heights which at least 50%-60% of both Somali males and females possess. Alpinoid types and Mediterreanean-Semitoid types also exist amongst Somalis where the heights are between short to medium, the people have heavier skulls, deep set in eyes, small pointy-upturned noses like Alpinoids, medium sized foreheads, the alpinoid types are also on the heavier side when it comes to weights and muscles which the Nordic types lack (they're much thinner). These types all exist in Somalia, hair color, and eye color, along with skin tones vary amongst Somalis between very light-to very dark most Somalis are in between.
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Post by hamiticsister101 on Nov 11, 2012 23:22:52 GMT -5
The Chinese reporter Du Huang who went to Somalia in the 7th century AD reported that 50% of Somalia's population was white or fair and the other half as dark and reddish-brown in hue, he didn't differentiate between them and considered both to be the same race (features and all), he also described that the women to be much Whiter than the males who were swarthier and darker. Both females and males of great heights (very tall) and handsome.
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Post by Noah on Nov 12, 2012 0:13:19 GMT -5
Hey lil sis. Broadly-speaking, Hamitic peoples are leptodolichomorphic (more gracile) because that's what their Capsian ancestors were for the most part. You can also find some modern individuals with more robust features, mainly due to an Iberomaurusian/Mechtoid (Moullian) strain; especially in the Maghreb.
^ There is no shame in having dark hair and eye colour. I've noticed in some of your posts you are claiming a far too high amount of somalis have fair/red hair or light eyes. Jeeze, those don't even run at 10% in most parts of southern europe (unless you start including hazel or "medium" colours as "light"). When you get to Africa they are all well under 5%. I used to be on several forums where people were claiming Berbers are over 40% blonde. lol. The characteristic hair and eye color of Hamitic peoples in general is indeed dark, not light. As stated before, light eyes and hair are actually in the minority in all Caucasoid origin peoples; especially 'brunet' Mediterraneans. In fact, brown is believed to have been the default human eye color, with light-colored eyes developing more recently in a circumscribed area. For example, Joan Fletcher (2002) noted the following with regard to the most common natural hair color of the Ancient Egyptians, prior to the application of henna: "In addition to its style, the color, texture, type, and general condition of the hair can also be examined. Hair color is a fascinating study in itself, and the wide range of shades portrayed in Egyptian art does, to a large extent, reflect the diverse range found in reality. The most common hair color then, as now, was a very dark brown, almost black color, although natural auburn and even (rather surprisingly) blonde hair are also to be found. With their great fondness for elaboration, the Egyptians’ skillful use of dyes has produced yet further shades for us to study, analysis showing many to be various forms of henna, which even an aged Rameses II had used regularly to rejuvenate his white hair[...] The vast majority of hair samples discovered at the site were cymotrichous (Caucasian) in type as opposed to heliotrichous (Negroid), a feature which is standard through dynastic times" Coon observed the same characteristic black/dark brown, cymotrichous hair in his study of predynastic and dynastic period Ancient Egyptians.
There are two additional important things I forgot to mention last time around: - Some Cro Magnon specimens were recently tested for aDNA/ancient DNA. Like the Iberomaurusians, they too wound up possessing West Eurasian maternal lineages. Haplogroups observed in the Paglicci Cave Cro-Magnons included N and HV. These clades are mostly associated with the Near East, which suggests that the Cro-Magnons in Europe expanded into the continent directly from Near Eastern areas.
"[...] Following the definition given in ref. 36, the presence of a single mutation in 16,223 within HRVI suggests a classification of Paglicci-12 into the haplogroup N*, which is observed today in several samples from the Near East and, at lower frequencies, in the Caucasus (35). It is difficult to say whether the apparent evolutionary relationship between Paglicci-25 and Paglicci-12 and those populations is more than a coincidence. Indeed, the haplogroups to which the Cro-Magnon type sequences appear to belong are rare among modern samples, and therefore their frequencies are poorly estimated. However, genetic affinities between the first anatomically modern Europeans and current populations of the Near East make sense in the light of the likely routes of Upper Paleolithic human expansions in Europe, as documented in the archaeological record (37)." Although rare nowadays anywhere in the world, downstream sub-clades of these same Cro-Magnon-associated maternal haplogroups also have a notable incidence in modern Eastern Hamitic areas in the Horn and Nile Valley.
- The ties between Hamitic peoples and ancient populations in the Nubian region are not with the Mesolithic Nubians (the latter of whom were actually of Paleoafrican stock). Those close relations are instead with the later Nile Valley groups ancestral to or associated with the pyramid builders i.e. the A-group, C-group and Meroitic populations. A recent study has actually shown these older vs. later Nubian region populations to be genetically distinct from one other, in line with their divergent cranial patterns. Note, for example, where the Mesolithic Nubians from Wadi Halfa are branched in the craniometric dendrogram below relative to the Hamitic groups. They're quite distant and cluster instead with the Negroid sample.
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